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Mark Thorson
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 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or |
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Fred Kasner wrote:
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One of the worst (save burns after ignition) disasters of gasoline
dousing is the absorbtion of tetraethyl lead into the skin. The stuff is
a nasty poison. It is no longer used in the US and so we don't even have
it in the atmosphere as we used to when (C2H5)4Pb was employed years ago.
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A fun fact is that the same guy invented both
the use of tetraethyl lead as an antiknock additive
and Freon refrigerants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley
He died in an odd way -- he was strangled by
a device he invented to get himself out of bed,
following his disability from contracting polio. |
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Matt
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or |
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jim wrote:
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Fred Kasner wrote:
I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.
Quantity, my boy, quantity. The amount of water carried along with the
reaction material to make hydrogen that is needed to carry a vehicle for
more than just a run to the grocery down the block is quite large.
I haven't been following this thread closely. The original topic was
hydrogen-boosted combustion. Assuming you are still discussing the same thing,
the amount of water needed in a typical system that derives hydrogen from water
is about a quart per 1000 miles. How far is your grocery store?
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I understand that the hydrogen produced is about 1/1000 the amount of
gasoline burned. Stoichiometry would imply that the water used is 9
times that, or around 1/100 of the gasoline burned. So if you fill the
converter when you fill the gas tank, you would be adding say 1 1/4
pints. Maybe the converter's volume is twice that?
What is the concentration of caustic in the converter? I thought it was
rather far from saturation whereas battery acid is rather near saturation.
| Quote: |
-jim
Near
the end of the tank of water that has been converted to a concentrated
solution of something such as NaOH there is a lot of caustic there.
Whereas there is only a small amount of H2SO4 in the battery of a
automobile. |
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jim
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or |
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Matt wrote:
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jim wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.
Quantity, my boy, quantity. The amount of water carried along with the
reaction material to make hydrogen that is needed to carry a vehicle for
more than just a run to the grocery down the block is quite large.
I haven't been following this thread closely. The original topic was
hydrogen-boosted combustion. Assuming you are still discussing the same thing,
the amount of water needed in a typical system that derives hydrogen from water
is about a quart per 1000 miles. How far is your grocery store?
I understand that the hydrogen produced is about 1/1000 the amount of
gasoline burned.
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Your comparing mass?
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Stoichiometry would imply that the water used is 9
times that, or around 1/100 of the gasoline burned.
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If you mean 1% the mass - that is about right. By those numbers a car that gets
29 mpg would use about a quart of water in 1000 miles. That is pretty close to
the amounts I've read. At any rate the amounts involved are actually pretty
small. Everyone seems to focus on the quantity of energy. The energy involved
is also pretty small. The energy to convert the water to gas is less than needed
to run the headlights so the energy losses that everyone focuses on are really
quite tiny compared to the total energy a car uses.
| Quote: |
So if you fill the
converter when you fill the gas tank, you would be adding say 1 1/4
pints. Maybe the converter's volume is twice that?
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That quantity sounds about right, but I would think there are a lot of problems
with getting this to work effectively. To work efficiently the water would have
to be fed into the converter at more or less the same rate as it is used to
maintain electrolyte concentration. Also, water itself is problematic because it
freezes.
There are a lot of other technological problems to be solved to make this work.
The gas has to be generated and fed to the engine at a rate that is needed and
that alone is not easy. And every laboratory that has studied this has concluded
that in order to take advantage of the altered combustion properties of hydrogen
enriched fuel there need to be significant changes to engine design. That means
things like higher compression ratio and redesign of fuel management and
ignition and valve timing.
It just doesn't seem likely that the kit that you buy on the internet are going
to be up to the technology challenges involved to make this work.
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What is the concentration of caustic in the converter? I thought it was
rather far from saturation whereas battery acid is rather near saturation.
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I don't know. But I rather doubt the amount of caustic used is as much as the
amount in a can of Drano. And I expect there are whole semi loads of drano out
on the highways.
-jim
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dale_peterson
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or |
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Hydrogen is very very light and disapates up-ward very quickly, which
probably makes it less dangerous then gasoline liquid or fumes. In a
confined area it could collect I suppose, but so could gasoline fumes.
diddly |
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Fred Kasner
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or |
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jim wrote:
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Fred Kasner wrote:
Matt wrote:
... snip ...
One thing I think is true about caustic is that it doesn't cause much
immediate pain when in contact with the skin, so you may not know your
skin is turning to soapy leather or so. That can be a problem if you
touch your eyes. You are aware immediately When you get a drop of
strong sulfuric on the skin.
Other than that, I don't see much difference in degree of hazard between
a hydroxy converter and a lead-acid battery. Just douse the spill with
plenty of water.
I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.
Quantity, my boy, quantity. The amount of water carried along with the
reaction material to make hydrogen that is needed to carry a vehicle for
more than just a run to the grocery down the block is quite large.
I haven't been following this thread closely. The original topic was
hydrogen-boosted combustion. Assuming you are still discussing the same thing,
the amount of water needed in a typical system that derives hydrogen from water
is about a quart per 1000 miles. How far is your grocery store?
-jim
Near
the end of the tank of water that has been converted to a concentrated
solution of something such as NaOH there is a lot of caustic there.
Whereas there is only a small amount of H2SO4 in the battery of a
automobile.
One winter, the two batteries (under the rear seat) of my MGB ruptured
and there was very little damage to the garage floor from the amount of
sulfuric acid that was released. They pool of liquid didn't even get to
the tires and attack them.
FK
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A quart is with a rough approximation a liter. Another rough
approximation is that a quart is about two pounds or about 900 grams.
And since about 1/16 of the mass of water is hydrogen you have about
900/16 grams of hydrogen or about 56 grams of hydrogen. And you really
think you can drive a car on 56 grams of hydrogen for 1000 miles? I
won't even bother to convert the available energy for complete
combustion of 56 grams of H2 as the super fuel you believe it is. 56
grams of gasoline (a much more energetic fuel than H2 provides as a
fuel) will never get you even started on your 1000 mile trip. Better
math required for you vehicle.
FK |
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jim
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or |
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Fred Kasner wrote:
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A quart is with a rough approximation a liter. Another rough
approximation is that a quart is about two pounds or about 900 grams.
And since about 1/16 of the mass of water is hydrogen you have about
900/16 grams of hydrogen or about 56 grams of hydrogen. And you really
think you can drive a car on 56 grams of hydrogen for 1000 miles?
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That is what I thought. You don't have a clue. The answer to your question is
yes. That is roughly the quantity of hydrogen used.
| Quote: |
I
won't even bother to convert the available energy for complete
combustion of 56 grams of H2 as the super fuel you believe it is. 56
grams of gasoline (a much more energetic fuel than H2 provides as a
fuel) will never get you even started on your 1000 mile trip. Better
math required for you vehicle.
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The vehicle doesn't derive energy from math it runs on gasoline. The function of
the hydrogen is to alter the way gasoline burns. The total energy in the
hydrogen is quite small (<1%) compared to the amount of gasoline used.
-jim
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