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Eeyore
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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"zzbunker@netscape.net" wrote:
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Eeyore wrote:
I don't follow you there at all.
They [GM] can buy robots from robot companies.
They can buy computers and I.T. from computer and I.T. companies.
Of course they can. Since they actually invented IT.
Which is why other smarter people invented
A.I, PV Cells, mircocomputers,, and cruise missiles.
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I still don't see what your point is. Is there one ?
Graham |
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Uncle Ben
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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On Jun 16, 11:44 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Uncle Ben wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:23 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
It is often claimed on the basis of chemical energy in fuels that the
driving efficiency of cars using those fuels must be proportional to
their energy content. Anecdotale evidence has disagreed with this
assumption.
In 2005, the American Coalition on Ethanol commissioned a study of
this question. Their report can be found at
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf
Features of the report are that they actually drove three different
test vehicles several hundred miles under conditions designed to
eliminate accidental differences between wind speed, vehicle speed,
and others.
[snip]
more study is needed to determine if there are any long-term
consequences.
That is their get out clause. Ethanol in E85 is quite a good solvent in
an older fuel system that was designed expecting only to see mostly
hydrocarbons. In a flex fuel vehicle then fair enough - but it would
help to have a higher compression to match ethanols burning properties.
Given the differences found between BTU and mileage in this test, a
study of the differences in fuel
economy between unleaded and E85 in flexible fuel vehicles should also
be investigated. Currently,
mileage is assumed to be almost 30% lower when using E85, while
anecdotal evidence indicates that
actual MPG performance of E85 is much better than that estimate.
Anecdotal evidence is always a bit iffy. A car that has been properly
tuned after changing the fuel might well do somewhat better mpg if the
engine mixture was slightly wrong before the fuel was changed.
If anyone suspects that the American Coalition for Ethanol might
improperly influence the results of their study to favor their product
should consider doing the experiment on their own vehicle, as I have
done.
I am sure that an advocate lobby group for an insanely inefficient fuel
from food process must be paragons of scientific virtue who always tell
the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Establish your baseline by filling up with your usual fuel, letting
the automatic pump dictate the stop. Set your trip odometer to 0.
Drive your usual routine for 200 miles. record the exact miles driven.
Be worth having the car properly tuned up first before you baseline it.
I suspect at least some of the mileage improvements you are seeing on
changing to ethanol come from having tuned up the engine properly again
in the process from a sub optimal state.
Then do it again with a mixture of 2 parts E10 to 1 part E85 more or
less and repeat the measurement. When you fill up you note the total
amount of each fuel you put in. That is the amount of gasoline you
burned. (Your fuel mixture will be slightly lower than E32 because of
the residual straight gasoline in your tank when you filled up.)
After 200 more miles, note the miles driven, fill up with anything you
like, noting the amount you put in, which is the amount of the mixture
you burned.
Better to do it over nearly a tank full. At least that way you get
soemthing like a reasonable average over all conditions.
(Your check-engine light probably will not come with a mere E30 in
this trial, but if it does, don't panic. It is just the extra oxygen
in ethanol that is making your computer think there is a leak in the
system. When you resume with your usual fuel, it will quickly go
out.)
Figure your mpg on each trial and report back here! The energy
content theory says your mileage will drop 10%. But you will be the
jury for this theory!
It is also going to depend somewhat on the sort of mileage you do. If
you spend a lot of time idling at traffic lights the engine idle speed
could be quite a big factor in perceived milage.
If you test it cruising on a motorway at a steady 70mph that gives a
pretty good clean measure of conversion of fuel to useful work.
There is also the risk of bias. You want to believe this result and get
better milage so with the E85 you drive better with more anticipation
and less heavy footed use of the brakes - net result better milage.
Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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Or you could get someone else to do a study for you. See
http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read/?id=old-1198253885&paper=topstories
and the full report linked to this news release.
Uncle Ben |
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Uncle Ben
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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On Jun 16, 11:44 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
... I am sure that an advocate lobby group for an insanely inefficient fuel
from food process must be paragons of scientific virtue who always tell
the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. ...
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Well, Martin, what you call an "insanely inefficient" fuel is a
powerful, clean fuel that I love to drive with in my old 1999 Outback
that I converted to flex-fuel. My car has more pep on E85 than on
gasoline: higher torque and higher HP, even without higher
compression. In NY, it is also a bargain. I can drive 7 miles per
dollar on E85 but only 6 on gasoline, because my gas station sells E85
for $3 a gallon and gasoline for $4.20 (6/18/08 prices).
(Chevrolets don't do as well. The Subaru engine can tune itself to
convert more of the admittedly smaller chemical energy of E85 into
useful work. The Subaru gets 85% of the gasoline mileage from E85
while burning only 70% as many BTUs. The Chevrolets don't.)
In my experience then, E85 is cheaper, cleaner, hotter, and not
imported. Not bad for an insanely inefficient fuel, eh?
Uncle Ben |
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Tom M
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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"Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9866$48568a40$10102@news.teranews.com...
| Quote: |
Uncle Ben wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:23 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
After 200 more miles, note the miles driven, fill up with anything you
like, noting the amount you put in, which is the amount of the mixture
you burned.
Better to do it over nearly a tank full. At least that way you get
soemthing like a reasonable average over all conditions.
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200 miles is a full tank of E85. |
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DG
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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Uncle Ben wrote:
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In my experience then, E85 is cheaper, cleaner, hotter, and not
imported. Not bad for an insanely inefficient fuel, eh?
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Absolutely...
Long live fermentation and distillation! Although, I'd rather drink
it than drive on it... JMNSHO...
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- |
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Uncle Ben
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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On Jun 19, 9:05 pm, CJT <abujl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
DG wrote:
Uncle Ben wrote:
In my experience then, E85 is cheaper, cleaner, hotter, and not
imported. Not bad for an insanely inefficient fuel, eh?
Absolutely...
Long live fermentation and distillation! Although, I'd rather drink
it than drive on it... JMNSHO...
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =-
Too bad it takes as much energy to grow, ferment, and convert the source
material as the end product contains. Some would argue that the word
"almost" belongs in that sentence, but the point stands.
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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The only paper that makes such a claim is that of Pimental and Patzek,
and they have been rebutted by a dozen legitimate scholars. According
to the US Dept. of Agriculture, even with corn ethanol, the ERoEI is
1.67. In Brazil where they make ethanol fromsugar cane, the ERoEI is
7 or 8 --- 7 times as much energy recovered as is invested in the
process.
It is the oil companies that keep circulating the bogus figure and
never mention the accurate figures.
Uncle Ben |
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CJT
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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DG wrote:
| Quote: |
Uncle Ben wrote:
In my experience then, E85 is cheaper, cleaner, hotter, and not
imported. Not bad for an insanely inefficient fuel, eh?
Absolutely...
Long live fermentation and distillation! Although, I'd rather drink
it than drive on it... JMNSHO...
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =-
Too bad it takes as much energy to grow, ferment, and convert the source |
material as the end product contains. Some would argue that the word
"almost" belongs in that sentence, but the point stands.
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net. |
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DG
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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CJT wrote:
| Quote: |
DG wrote:
Uncle Ben wrote:
In my experience then, E85 is cheaper, cleaner, hotter, and not
imported. Not bad for an insanely inefficient fuel, eh?
Absolutely...
Long live fermentation and distillation! Although, I'd rather drink
it than drive on it... JMNSHO...
Too bad it takes as much energy to grow, ferment, and convert the source
material as the end product contains. Some would argue that the word
"almost" belongs in that sentence, but the point stands.
|
Ah, the bogus Net Energy Gain (NEG) claims that have been proven wrong
repeatedly in the real world.
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- |
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DG
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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Uncle Ben wrote:
| Quote: |
The only paper that makes such a claim is that of Pimental and Patzek,
and they have been rebutted by a dozen legitimate scholars. According
to the US Dept. of Agriculture, even with corn ethanol, the ERoEI is
1.67. In Brazil where they make ethanol fromsugar cane, the ERoEI is
7 or 8 --- 7 times as much energy recovered as is invested in the
process.
It is the oil companies that keep circulating the bogus figure and
never mention the accurate figures.
|
Absolutely. Pimental is a quack and a shill.
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- |
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CJT
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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DG wrote:
| Quote: |
Uncle Ben wrote:
The only paper that makes such a claim is that of Pimental and Patzek,
and they have been rebutted by a dozen legitimate scholars. According
to the US Dept. of Agriculture, even with corn ethanol, the ERoEI is
1.67. In Brazil where they make ethanol fromsugar cane, the ERoEI is
7 or 8 --- 7 times as much energy recovered as is invested in the
process.
It is the oil companies that keep circulating the bogus figure and
never mention the accurate figures.
Absolutely. Pimental is a quack and a shill.
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =-
Then there's no need for any subsidies. Tax it like gasoline. |
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net. |
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Uncle Ben
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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On Jun 21, 1:15 pm, "Eric Gisin" <gi...@uniserve.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
No, gas is $3.44 (www.energyintel.com/) and E85 is tax-free or subsidized..
Price per volume comparision is meaningless, use weight or energy content..
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Eric,
(1) you dispute the price of gasoline at my gas station in Albany,
NY. I was there on the 18th. You were not.
(2) You say that E85 is subsidized. Do you think that gasoline is
not? Various organizations have estimated oil industry tax subsidies
to be about $5-$15 a gallon of gasoline [see distributiondrive.com/
Article4.html or icta.org].
(3) E85 is sold by the gallon. You can then convert it any way you
like. My favorite is miles/dollar. That depends on the car. If you
pay attention on the internet, you will find many, many experienced
users claiming that the mpg penalty is 5-15%. Chevrolets are an
exception; apparently something in the GM design cannot profit from
the superior combustion characteristics of ethanol; that is the rare
case in which cost per BTU is relevant.
There is an example of a Toyota Camry burning E30 that gets 15%
GREATER mpg than when burning gasoline.
http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read/?id=old-1198253885&paper=topstories
and the link to the study. (The Camry was unmodified from its showroom
state as a gasoline-burning car.)
I conclude from this that there is no great virtue in quoting prices
by the BTU.
Uncle Ben |
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Eric Gisin
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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No, gas is $3.44 (www.energyintel.com/) and E85 is tax-free or subsidized.
Price per volume comparision is meaningless, use weight or energy content.
Note that diesel is cheaper than gas by weight, and ever cheaper by energy produced.
E85 should be compared to turbo diesel, not gas ICE.
Certainly not the one car that proves your argument.
"Uncle Ben" <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:9f01f620-f03b-484c-8085-a6db19cbb643@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Well, Martin, what you call an "insanely inefficient" fuel is a
powerful, clean fuel that I love to drive with in my old 1999 Outback
that I converted to flex-fuel. My car has more pep on E85 than on
gasoline: higher torque and higher HP, even without higher
compression. In NY, it is also a bargain. I can drive 7 miles per
dollar on E85 but only 6 on gasoline, because my gas station sells E85
for $3 a gallon and gasoline for $4.20 (6/18/08 prices).
(Chevrolets don't do as well. The Subaru engine can tune itself to
convert more of the admittedly smaller chemical energy of E85 into
useful work. The Subaru gets 85% of the gasoline mileage from E85
while burning only 70% as many BTUs. The Chevrolets don't.)
In my experience then, E85 is cheaper, cleaner, hotter, and not
imported. Not bad for an insanely inefficient fuel, eh?
Uncle Ben |
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Rob Dekker
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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"Yevgen Barsukov" <evgenijb@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0daadf51-87cb-4b1f-8de4-66a7c88bec87@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
...
| Quote: |
Good to know that ethanol price can provide a "hard limit" on
how high gasoline price can rise, and it looks like this limit
is almost reached already.
|
This is a misconception. Ethanol volume is insignificant w.r.t. gasoline volume.
So gasoline price will set a "hard lower limit" on ethanol prices (not the other way around).
With that, price of ethanol (and thus also of corn) will go up if oil price goes up.
With that, all agricultural products will go up in price (with time-lag of course).
So you see, until ethanol privides a substantial portion of fuel usage, everything will be pulled up in price with the price of oil.
And the less oil we have available, the higher the price will get.
Until we use less of the stuff.
| Quote: |
Clear that market will also affect
the price of ethanol itself, but if its fundamentals are
disconnected from oil (specially with new technologies kicking in),
dynamics will be quite different.
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New technologies (like cellulosic ethanol) would affect the price of ethanol much, until they provide a substantial amount of
overall fuel consumption.
And we are not even close to that for a long time. Currently ethanol volume provides only 5% of gasoline fuel volume (in the US).
New technologies might affect profitability of (producing) ethanol. If you can make cellulosic ethanol cheaper than with the current
corn-based process, then you have a winning business with a huge market.
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Stephen Sprunk
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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Rob Dekker wrote:
| Quote: |
"Yevgen Barsukov" <evgenijb@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0daadf51-87cb-4b1f-8de4-66a7c88bec87@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
..
Good to know that ethanol price can provide a "hard limit" on
how high gasoline price can rise, and it looks like this limit
is almost reached already.
This is a misconception. Ethanol volume is insignificant w.r.t.
gasoline volume. So gasoline price will set a "hard lower limit" on
ethanol prices (not the other way around).
|
You've got it backwards, as proven by the fact E85 is _already_ cheaper
than gasoline. How can a "hard limit" be violated so easily?
Gasoline sets a hard _upper_ limit on the price of ethanol, because
anyone can switch to buying gasoline if the price of ethanol were
higher. Most people, at least today, cannot switch to ethanol because
their cars can't take it or it simply isn't available where they live.
Most of the millions who can don't even know they have that choice.
Crop prices have far more of a limiting effect on ethanol prices than
gasoline does. And, with us using tax money to pay farmers _not_ to
grow crops to keep the prices up, we're nowhere near that limit yet.
| Quote: |
With that, price of ethanol (and thus also of corn) will go up if
oil price goes up. With that, all agricultural products will go up
in price (with time-lag of course).
|
Eventually, yes. There are many things we can do to mitigate that, like
not paying farmers to keep fields idle and getting rid of the stupid
import ban on sugarcane.
Ethanol will have absolutely no effect on the price of crops that are
grown in places where corn cannot grow. There are also specific crops,
like switchgrass, that can be grown in places that are not commercially
viable for any other crop.
| Quote: |
So you see, until ethanol privides a substantial portion of fuel usage, everything will be pulled up in price with the price of oil.
And the less oil we have available, the higher the price will get.
Until we use less of the stuff.
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Yes, the most important thing we can do is reduce consumption. PHEVs,
new nukes, and higher CAFE requirements are already in the works. But
we still need energy, and ethanol makes a good substitute to cover the
demand that we can't get rid of without destroying our economy.
S |
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DG
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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Rob Dekker wrote:
| Quote: |
So you see, until ethanol privides a substantial portion of fuel usage,
everything will be pulled up in price with the price of oil.
|
That's already happened. Ethanol is a substitute for oil.
| Quote: |
New technologies might affect profitability of (producing) ethanol.
If you can make cellulosic ethanol cheaper than with the current
corn-based process, then you have a winning business with a huge market.
|
Remove the US protection on global sugar and you'll see it happen
quickly. The ethanol companies in the USA are getting squeezed by
high corn prices and artificially high sugar prices. The limited
amound that comes in from Mexico as part of NAFTA just isn't enough.
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- |
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