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Eeyore
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 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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DG wrote:
| Quote: |
Rob Dekker wrote:
So you see, until ethanol privides a substantial portion of fuel usage,
everything will be pulled up in price with the price of oil.
That's already happened. Ethanol is a substitute for oil.
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Not exactly, but it is a liquid fuel
| Quote: |
New technologies might affect profitability of (producing) ethanol.
If you can make cellulosic ethanol cheaper than with the current
corn-based process, then you have a winning business with a huge market.
Remove the US protection on global sugar and you'll see it happen
quickly. The ethanol companies in the USA are getting squeezed by
high corn prices and artificially high sugar prices. The limited
amound that comes in from Mexico as part of NAFTA just isn't enough.
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Local problem.
Graham |
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DG
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
DG wrote:
Rob Dekker wrote:
So you see, until ethanol privides a substantial portion of fuel usage,
everything will be pulled up in price with the price of oil.
That's already happened. Ethanol is a substitute for oil.
Not exactly, but it is a liquid fuel
|
Which works perfectly well in flex fuel vehicles.
| Quote: |
New technologies might affect profitability of (producing) ethanol.
If you can make cellulosic ethanol cheaper than with the current
corn-based process, then you have a winning business with a huge market.
Remove the US protection on global sugar and you'll see it happen
quickly. The ethanol companies in the USA are getting squeezed by
high corn prices and artificially high sugar prices. The limited
amound that comes in from Mexico as part of NAFTA just isn't enough.
Local problem.
|
Yes, the US sugar policy is stupid and the free market should decide
the price.
-= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- |
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Eeyore
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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DG wrote:
| Quote: |
Eeyore wrote:
DG wrote:
Remove the US protection on global sugar and you'll see it happen
quickly. The ethanol companies in the USA are getting squeezed by
high corn prices and artificially high sugar prices. The limited
amound that comes in from Mexico as part of NAFTA just isn't enough.
Local problem.
Yes, the US sugar policy is stupid and the free market should decide
the price.
|
Couldn't agree more.
Graham |
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zzbunker@netscape.net
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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On Jun 18, 12:23 pm, Yevgen Barsukov <evgen...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 17, 5:49 pm, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 6:05 pm, Yevgen Barsukov <evgen...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:37 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:53 am, Yevgen Barsukov <evgen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mleage is still lower on E85 than on gasoline
even on Saab optimized system.
According to their own web-site:
15,000 km per year on 1,350 litres of petrol. Over the same >distance, a typical BioPower driver would use 1,755 litres of E85
So the mileage per volume (saab data!) is 0.8 of gasoline.
In my neighborhood the price of E85 is 0.75 that of gasoline.
In my car, the mileage per volume is 0.85 that of gasoline.
Therefore, I go farther per dollar on E85.
Who cares about miles/gallon; its miles/money that counts.
Uncle Ben
Good point. However your area appears somewhat untypical. The average
difference between E85 and unleaded gasoline price is 17%http://e85prices.com/
Also low price of E85 reflects subsidies on ethanol rather than
economic fundamentals (e.g. might not be still there last year or a
year
after that when subsidies are canceled). So if your decision to
purchase a car is based on this expectation, figure this uncertainty
in.
Regards,
Yevgen
You are right about the unpredictability of the price of ethanol.
This year's floods in the mid-west are robbing us of much corn.
But look longer out. If it is true about Peak Oil occurring right
now, the price of oil is going to go up and up for years, while
ethanol will go up much slower. Eventually we all will be begging for
ethanol or another biofuel.
Oil is not going to go back to where it used to be. When oil is $3000
per barrel, we likely will not be burning it to move cars. We might be
making pharmaceuticals out of it.
Ben
I quite agree that oil has picked and we have to brace for production
to be half in 30-40 years. So yes, prices is only
going to go up long term, regardless of some possible short-term
drops.
But, ethanol prices is highly affected by oil-price
because of disel fuel used in agriculture and fertilizers
which are (as all heavy-chemistry) very much oil and gas based.
If that is true that only about 10% of bio-ethanol energy is
coming from the sun, and all other is offset by used oil,
than price of ethanol can be expected to lag only 10% behind
price of oil.
|
That's not the main advantage of ethanol over sources.
It comes from a renewable source of easily obtained energy.
Which is also why it works so well with computers, fiber optics,
PV Cells, lasers, lightbulbs, A.I. batteries. and refrigerators.
Note that 10% is an optimistic estimate, some
| Quote: |
other estimates are saying that it is not breaking even.
But than, given high price pressure, technology of bio-ethanol
is bound to improve. Switch-grass and other cellulose processing
sound very doable from chemical stand-point. They might further
disconnect price of ethanol from oil and that would be great.
Good to know that ethanol price can provide a "hard limit" on
how high gasoline price can rise, and it looks like this limit
is almost reached already. Clear that market will also affect
the price of ethanol itself, but if its fundamentals are
disconnected from oil (specially with new technologies kicking in),
dynamics will be quite different.
Regards.
Yevgen- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text - |
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zzbunker@netscape.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency |
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On Jul 4, 2:19 pm, "zzbun...@netscape.net" <zzbun...@netscape.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 18, 12:23 pm, Yevgen Barsukov <evgen...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 5:49 pm, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 6:05 pm, Yevgen Barsukov <evgen...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:37 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:53 am, Yevgen Barsukov <evgen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mleage is still lower on E85 than on gasoline
even on Saab optimized system.
According to their own web-site:
15,000 km per year on 1,350 litres of petrol. Over the same >distance, a typical BioPower driver would use 1,755 litres of E85
So the mileage per volume (saab data!) is 0.8 of gasoline.
In my neighborhood the price of E85 is 0.75 that of gasoline.
In my car, the mileage per volume is 0.85 that of gasoline.
Therefore, I go farther per dollar on E85.
Who cares about miles/gallon; its miles/money that counts.
Uncle Ben
Good point. However your area appears somewhat untypical. The average
difference between E85 and unleaded gasoline price is 17%http://e85prices.com/
Also low price of E85 reflects subsidies on ethanol rather than
economic fundamentals (e.g. might not be still there last year or a
year
after that when subsidies are canceled). So if your decision to
purchase a car is based on this expectation, figure this uncertainty
in.
Regards,
Yevgen
You are right about the unpredictability of the price of ethanol.
This year's floods in the mid-west are robbing us of much corn.
But look longer out. If it is true about Peak Oil occurring right
now, the price of oil is going to go up and up for years, while
ethanol will go up much slower. Eventually we all will be begging for
ethanol or another biofuel.
Oil is not going to go back to where it used to be. When oil is $3000
per barrel, we likely will not be burning it to move cars. We might be
making pharmaceuticals out of it.
Ben
I quite agree that oil has picked and we have to brace for production
to be half in 30-40 years. So yes, prices is only
going to go up long term, regardless of some possible short-term
drops.
But, ethanol prices is highly affected by oil-price
because of disel fuel used in agriculture and fertilizers
which are (as all heavy-chemistry) very much oil and gas based.
If that is true that only about 10% of bio-ethanol energy is
coming from the sun, and all other is offset by used oil,
than price of ethanol can be expected to lag only 10% behind
price of oil.
That's not the main advantage of ethanol over sources.
It comes from a renewable source of easily obtained energy.
Which is also why it works so well with computers, fiber optics,
PV Cells, lasers, lightbulbs, A.I. batteries. and refrigerators.
|
Which is also the reason the morons in the idiot press are so
angsted
by it. Since the only thing the idiots know less about than
nuclear power, A.I. satellites, lasers, and robots, is cruise
missiles.
| Quote: |
Note that 10% is an optimistic estimate, some
other estimates are saying that it is not breaking even.
But than, given high price pressure, technology of bio-ethanol
is bound to improve. Switch-grass and other cellulose processing
sound very doable from chemical stand-point. They might further
disconnect price of ethanol from oil and that would be great.
Good to know that ethanol price can provide a "hard limit" on
how high gasoline price can rise, and it looks like this limit
is almost reached already. Clear that market will also affect
the price of ethanol itself, but if its fundamentals are
disconnected from oil (specially with new technologies kicking in),
dynamics will be quite different.
Regards.
Yevgen- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text - |
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