Chemistry Talk Chemistry Talk    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next          Chemistry Talk Forum Index -> Chemistry Talk View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Uncle Ben Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency It is often claimed on the basis of chemical energy in fuels that the driving efficiency of cars using those fuels must be proportional to their energy content. Anecdotale evidence has disagreed with this assumption. In 2005, the American Coalition on Ethanol commissioned a study of this question. Their report can be found at http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf Features of the report are that they actually drove three different test vehicles several hundred miles under conditions designed to eliminate accidental differences between wind speed, vehicle speed, and others. Excepts from the report appear below. Titles have been added to explain what part of the report is represented by each quotation. E85 is not covered in this report, but the trend of the data with increasing ethanol concentration shows that ethanol performs much better in miles/gallon than one would expect from the energy content of the fuel. In fact, using a novel denaturing mixture, the miles/gallon of gasoline mixed with ethanol outperformed pure gasoline even on a strictly gallon for gallon basis. One can hope that a similar careful study will appear using E85 in the near future to combat the arrogant assertion that chemical energy density predicts fuel performance in internal combustion engines. ------------------------------------------ [Title] FUEL ECONOMY STUDY Comparing Performance and Cost of Various Ethanol Blends and Standard Unleaded Gasoline [p.3 Study design] At their January 18, 2005 meeting, the ACE board of directors approved a motion meeting to fund a small-scale study that would test the efficiency of five fuel blends in three different unmodified vehicles. The five fuel blends were: • Unleaded gasoline (NL) • Unleaded with 10% standard ethanol (E10) • Unleaded with 20% standard ethanol (E20) • Unleaded with 30% standard ethanol (E30) • Unleaded with 10% ethanol denatured with iso-pentane and bio-diesel (E10AK) Three late-model vehicles were to be used in the test, one each from: • General Motors • Ford • Toyota or Honda Allen Kasperson, a Fuel Research Specialist with over 30 years of training automobile and truck technicians as an instructor at Lake Area Vocational Technical School in Watertown, South Dakota, was selected to conduct the study. Care was taken to eliminate any of the variations or ..... [p.8 Conclusions]] While vehicles using concentrations of ethanol higher than 10% operated normally during this test, the American Coalition for Ethanol cannot recommend using ethanol blends with higher concentrations of ethanol than those recommended by the vehicle’s manufacturer. It should be noted that each vehicle in this test ran only 600 of its 1500 miles on E20 or E30, and while the short-term results were good, more study is needed to determine if there are any long-term consequences. This pilot study appears to confirm that BTU content is not a direct indication of the amount of work a vehicle can do with a given quantity of fuel. Other properties of ethanol seem to minimize the effects of lower BTU content. Admittedly, the test used a very small sample, but the results suggest that a larger and more detailed study be completed in the near future. Given the differences found between BTU and mileage in this test, a study of the differences in fuel economy between unleaded and E85 in flexible fuel vehicles should also be investigated. Currently, mileage is assumed to be almost 30% lower when using E85, while anecdotal evidence indicates that actual MPG performance of E85 is much better than that estimate. ------------------------- Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Uncle Ben Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency On Jun 15, 6:23 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote: Quote: It is often claimed on the basis of chemical energy in fuels that the driving efficiency of cars using those fuels must be proportional to their energy content.  Anecdotale evidence has disagreed with this assumption. In 2005, the American Coalition on Ethanol commissioned a study of this question.  Their report can be found at http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf Features of the report are that they actually drove three different test vehicles several hundred miles under conditions designed to eliminate accidental differences between wind speed, vehicle speed, and others. Excepts from the report appear below.  Titles have been added to explain what part of the report is represented by each quotation. E85 is not covered in this report, but the trend of the data with increasing ethanol concentration shows that ethanol performs much better in miles/gallon than one would expect from the energy content of the fuel. In fact, using a novel denaturing mixture, the miles/gallon of gasoline mixed with ethanol outperformed pure gasoline even on a strictly gallon for gallon basis. One can hope that a similar careful study will appear using E85 in the near future to combat the arrogant assertion that chemical energy density predicts fuel performance in internal combustion engines. ------------------------------------------ [Title] FUEL ECONOMY STUDY Comparing Performance and Cost of Various Ethanol Blends and Standard Unleaded Gasoline [p.3  Study design] At their January 18, 2005 meeting, the ACE board of directors approved a motion meeting to fund a small-scale study that would test the efficiency of five fuel blends in three different unmodified vehicles. The five fuel blends were: • Unleaded gasoline (NL) • Unleaded with 10% standard ethanol (E10) • Unleaded with 20% standard ethanol (E20) • Unleaded with 30% standard ethanol (E30) • Unleaded with 10% ethanol denatured with iso-pentane and bio-diesel (E10AK) Three late-model vehicles were to be used in the test, one each from: • General Motors • Ford • Toyota or Honda Allen Kasperson, a Fuel Research Specialist with over 30 years of training automobile and truck technicians as an instructor at Lake Area Vocational Technical School in Watertown, South Dakota, was selected to conduct the study. Care was taken to eliminate any of the variations or ..... [p.8  Conclusions]] While vehicles using concentrations of ethanol higher than 10% operated normally during this test, the American Coalition for Ethanol cannot recommend using ethanol blends with higher concentrations of ethanol than those recommended by the vehicle’s manufacturer. It should be noted that each vehicle in this test ran only 600 of its 1500 miles on E20 or E30, and while the short-term results were good, more study is needed to determine if there are any long-term consequences. This pilot study appears to confirm that BTU content is not a direct indication of the amount of work a vehicle can do with a given quantity of fuel. Other properties of ethanol seem to minimize the effects of lower BTU content. Admittedly, the test used a very small sample, but the results suggest that a larger and more detailed study be completed in the near future. Given the differences found between BTU and mileage in this test, a study of the differences in fuel economy between unleaded and E85 in flexible fuel vehicles should also be investigated. Currently, mileage is assumed to be almost 30% lower when using E85, while anecdotal evidence indicates that actual MPG performance of E85 is much better than that estimate. ------------------------- If anyone suspects that the American Coalition for Ethanol might improperly influence the results of their study to favor their product should consider doing the experiment on their own vehicle, as I have done. (Don't try it with a Chevrolet Tahoe, a true gas-guzzler of an SUV doomed to perish like the dinosaurs now that the world is running out of cheap oil. But any reasonably designed car suitable for today's conditions will operate fine on 30% ethanol for a few hundred miles without fear of damage to the vehicle.) Establish your baseline by filling up with your usual fuel, letting the automatic pump dictate the stop. Set your trip odometer to 0. Drive your usual routine for 200 miles. record the exact miles driven. Then do it again with a mixture of 2 parts E10 to 1 part E85 more or less and repeat the measurement. When you fill up you note the total amount of each fuel you put in. That is the amount of gasoline you burned. (Your fuel mixture will be slightly lower than E32 because of the residual straight gasoline in your tank when you filled up.) After 200 more miles, note the miles driven, fill up with anything you like, noting the amount you put in, which is the amount of the mixture you burned. (Your check-engine light probably will not come with a mere E30 in this trial, but if it does, don't panic. It is just the extra oxygen in ethanol that is making your computer think there is a leak in the system. When you resume with your usual fuel, it will quickly go out.) Figure your mpg on each trial and report back here! The energy content theory says your mileage will drop 10%. But you will be the jury for this theory! Uncle Ben Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Bret Cahill Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Bret Cahill Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Uncle Ben Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency On Jun 15, 12:23 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote: Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Bret Cahill For the future, sure. I think 85% is good. For the present (since I already have a usable car), I switched for the 18% savings I get already; and then I discovered the extra pep that my car gets as a bonus. Uncle Ben Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Uncle Ben Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency On Jun 15, 12:42 pm, DG <d.j.good...@comcast.net> wrote: Quote: Bret Cahill wrote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Put a sensor in your fuel line and let the engine adjust to the mixture in the line.  Flex fuel... -=  http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/  =- The sensor is there already. The computer in the car can't reach the richness it needs on E85, so that's where the converter comes in. Uncle Ben Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Bret Cahill Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Put a sensor in your fuel line and let the engine adjust to the mixture in the line. The compression ratio depends on the machinery geometry which isn't easy to adjust without removing the head or crankshaft. Bret Cahill Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Bret Cahill Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. For the future, sure. �I think 85% is good. Let's go with either that or 100%. Flex fuel was just a way to get the foot into the door so gas stations would start to accomodate the fuel. Quote: For the present (since I already have a usable car), I switched for the 18% savings I get already; and then I discovered the extra pep that my car gets as a bonus. You'ld save even more and get even more pep with a higher compression ratio. You'ld never be able to use gasoline again, however, because of knock. The only reason Indy cars get 2 mpg is because they are moving at excessive speeds. The same engine design could easily be adapted to an efficient commuter vehicle. Bret Cahill Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Uncle Ben Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency On Jun 15, 1:21 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote: Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. For the future, sure. �I think 85% is good. Let's go with either that or 100%. 85% is good because it adds a bit of oiliness to lubricate the cylinders. And in winter in upstate NY, they go down to 70%, I am told, just to help us start the cars in the cold mornings. Ben Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor DG Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Bret Cahill wrote: Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Put a sensor in your fuel line and let the engine adjust to the mixture in the line. Flex fuel... -= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor DG Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Put a sensor in your fuel line and let the engine adjust to the mixture in the line. The compression ratio depends on the machinery geometry which isn't easy to adjust without removing the head or crankshaft. Ah, time for new engines... -= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor DG Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Bret Cahill <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote: Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. For the future, sure. ?I think 85% is good. Let's go with either that or 100%. Flex fuel was just a way to get the foot into the door so gas stations would start to accomodate the fuel. For the present (since I already have a usable car), I switched for the 18% savings I get already; and then I discovered the extra pep that my car gets as a bonus. You'ld save even more and get even more pep with a higher compression ratio. You'ld never be able to use gasoline again, however, because of knock. The only reason Indy cars get 2 mpg is because they are moving at excessive speeds. The same engine design could easily be adapted to an efficient commuter vehicle. 20 years ago one of the smartest people I ever met was building ceramic engines. Their time may have come... -= http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/ =- Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Eeyore Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Uncle Ben wrote: Quote: It is often claimed on the basis of chemical energy in fuels that the driving efficiency of cars using those fuels must be proportional to their energy content. Complete nonsense. Ethanol for example has such a high equivalent octane rating that it can be used at much higher compression ratios, under which conditions ICEs are more efficient and therefore can recover most of the loss in pure calorimetric energy content. A practical way to do this is already in the market in europe by Saab, where the turbo boost pressure varies with the gasoline/ethanol mix in the tank, anywhere in the range from range from E85 to E0. It actually performs FASTER (higher bhp and higher torque) on E85 than pure gasoline. See 'Saab bio-power'. Maybe coming to the USA one day. It's taken it's home Swedish market by storm. Graham Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Eeyore Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Bret Cahill wrote: Quote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. NO. That would be stupid. Saab have already got the best solution. Variable boost turbo technology. Will run any mixture (or mixture of mixtures) currently sold. Graham Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Eeyore Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency DG wrote: Quote: Bret Cahill wrote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. Put a sensor in your fuel line and let the engine adjust to the mixture in the line. Flex fuel... Better than that ..... http://www.saabbiopower.co.uk/saabBiopower/ Been on sale for 2 years or so already. Works a treat. Graham Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Eeyore Guest Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Experimental data on ethanol fuel efficiency Uncle Ben wrote: Quote: Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote: If people are going to go to ethanol it might be easier to agree on some one percentage ethanol and then use the right [high] compression ratio engine. For the future, sure. I think 85% is good. For the present (since I already have a usable car), I switched for the 18% savings I get already; and then I discovered the extra pep that my car gets as a bonus. You'll get a hell of a lot more pep with a turbo ! That's why Saab's the world leader in this technology. They were they first to add turbos to ordinary everyday road cars, then they developed the world's first and only ? 32 bit ECU (Trionic). Now they've combined them to make the best flex-fuel cars in the world, with emission levels that are stunningly low. 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